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Merthen
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Birth of the Empires [post #1]

Przypadkiem mi się to znalazło:

http://web9.delta442.server4you.de/bote/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=78&task=view.download&cid=2


Warto ściągnąć i zerknąć jak rozwiązana jest rozgrywki.

Sept 29, 2010 at 19:38

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Jooyo
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #2]

o wyglada calkiem calkiem jak na wersje alpha juz sciagam, napisze jak wrazenia

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Sept 29, 2010 at 19:45
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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #3]

Gra bardzo rozbudowana. Niestety przy większym imperium toporna do zarządzania.

[Edited by Merthen on Sept 29, 2010 at 19:49]

Sept 29, 2010 at 19:49

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Jooyo
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #4]

No ja dlugo grac nie zamierzam tylko rzuce okiem moze jakas lekcje wyniose z tej gry.
Odnosze tez wrazenie po obejrzeniu screenow ze jest ona taka star trekowa Ale bardzo podobaja mi sie obrazki ras.

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Sept 29, 2010 at 19:51
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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #5]

Ja grałem pół godziny . Zarządzanie populacja przypomniało mi MoO II

Sept 29, 2010 at 19:52

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #6]

Tak, to jedno z 2 podejść do BotF2 - to akurat, przez lokalizację w Europie i kwestię praw autorskich, pozbawione całej Star Trekowej otoczki. Dawno nie sprawdzałem ich postępów i miło widzieć, że są już tak zaawansowani. BotF to jedna z moich miłości , choć jeszcze bardziej nie odwzajemniona niż SEV - zbyt dużo bugów. Dlatego na BotF2 czekam z niecierpliwością... już ponad 10 lat.

Swoją drogą, wiecie że to właśnie BotF miało początkowo być MoO2?

Ach, wygląda tak podobnie do BotF...

[Edited by PAwleus on Sept 29, 2010 at 20:12]

Sept 29, 2010 at 19:58

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Jooyo
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #7]

Czyli dobre mialem pierwsze wrazenie System klas planet tez mi przypomina ten znany ze ST (mowie bardziej o filmie bo w gre nie gralem)
Moje subiektywne wrazenia
Na pozytyw na pewno:
- rownolegle opracowywanie technologii z roznych dziedzin (via MOO1).
- sa tury
- klimat Star Treka
Minusy:
- zarzadzanie systemem zamiast pojedyncza planeta (nie przepadam za tym rozwiazaniem)

co do reszty no ani na plus ani na minus Faktycznie mozna miec problemy jak sie ma duze imperium ale ja tego nei doczekalem

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Swoją drogą, wiecie że to właśnie BotF miało początkowo być MoO2?

Tzn? mialo sie nazywac Moo2?

[Edited by Jooyo on Sept 29, 2010 at 20:13]

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Sept 29, 2010 at 20:11
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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #8]

A ja chyba wsiąknę...

Tak, to miało być MoO2, ale w trakcie opracowywania udało im się zawrzeć umowę na użycie elementów ze Star Treka i przerobili grę, tak przynajmniej słyszałem...

A w BotF zarządzanie całym systemem zamiast pojedynczą planetą bardzo mi się akurat podobało.

[Edited by PAwleus on Sept 29, 2010 at 20:17]

Sept 29, 2010 at 20:14

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Jooyo
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #9]

Nie slyszalem nic o tym moo2.
No kazdemu sie podoba cos innego Ja po prostu lubie czuc ze mam planete pod kontrola :P takie zboczenie :P

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Sept 29, 2010 at 20:20
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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #10]

Grałem w BotF i mile ją wspominam (niestety nie można było kupić oryginału w tych czasach). Klimat mi się bardzo podobał i ta mnogosć pobocznych ras. Tylko nie mogę sobie przypomnieć jak wyglądały tam bitwy

Z drugiej strony w MoO2 grałem dużo więcej i wyżej ja stawiam nad BotF (ale nie dużo)

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Tak, to jedno z 2 podejść do BotF2 - .

Jaka jest druga ?


Quote:
Jooyo wrote:
Czyli dobre mialem pierwsze wrazenie System klas planet tez mi przypomina ten znany ze ST (mowie bardziej o filmie bo w gre nie gralem)
Moje subiektywne wrazenia
Na pozytyw na pewno:
- rownolegle opracowywanie technologii z roznych dziedzin (via MOO1).
- sa tury
- klimat Star Treka



Z plusami się zgadzam


Quote:
Jooyo wrote:
- zarzadzanie systemem zamiast pojedyncza planeta (nie przepadam za tym rozwiazaniem)



Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
A w BotF zarządzanie całym systemem zamiast pojedynczą planetą bardzo mi się akurat podobało.


To ciekawy jestem jak ocenicie mój pomysł na zarządzanie (planeta-system-imperium) w koncepcie gry

[Edited by Merthen on Sept 29, 2010 at 20:24]
Sept 29, 2010 at 20:24

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Jooyo
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #11]

Quote:
Merthen wrote:
To ciekawy jestem jak ocenicie mój pomysł na zarządzanie (planeta-system-imperium) w koncepcie gry

Nie wiem ale jestem otwarty na innowacyjne rozwiazania

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Sept 29, 2010 at 20:26
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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #12]

Druga to po prostu BotF2

Sept 29, 2010 at 20:28

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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #13]

Quote:
Jooyo wrote:
Quote:
Merthen wrote:
To ciekawy jestem jak ocenicie mój pomysł na zarządzanie (planeta-system-imperium) w koncepcie gry

Nie wiem ale jestem otwarty na innowacyjne rozwiazania


Kilka dni temu dopracowałem pomysł na zarządzanie, ale mam do niego pewne wątpliwości i od tego czasu nie ruszyłem dalej. Chyba przedstawię ten pomysł przed opracowaniem całego konceptu (ma na niego duży wpływ) aby uzyskać Wasze opinie.

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Druga to po prostu BotF2


Link?

Edit
Już mam

[Edited by Merthen on Sept 29, 2010 at 20:39]
Sept 29, 2010 at 20:32

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #14]

Okazuje się że zmienili nazewnictwo i aktualnie BotF2 to ogólna nazwa na wszystkie próby stworzenia następcy, a jest ich obecnie więcej niż 2. O najświeższej inicjatywie, z chyba, według tego co o sobie podaje, najbardziej doświadczonym programistą jeśli chodzi o engine 3D jest tu

To o co pytałeś to Star Trek: Supremacy

Dla mnie BotF byłby znacznie lepszą grą niż MoO2, gdyby nie ilość bugów z jaką został wypuszczony, a które bardzo utrudniają gry multi przez dość częste CTD (AI niestety w skali makro nie radzą sobie niemal zupełnie, choć przy bardzo preferencyjnym dla nich starcie można osiągnąć dość ciekawe gry single), no i kilka innych niedopracowanych rzeczy - w każdym razie ogólna koncepcja jest według mnie znacznie lepsza od tego co mamy w MoO2: skomplikowanie osiągnięte poprzez prostotę (niestety innego rodzaju niż w MoO1)

Do Twojego projektu z BotF zarekomendowałbym przede wszystkim to co już rekomendowałem do SEV: koncepcję ekspansji poprzez tworzenie federacji (oczywiście zależy to od tego jak bardzo space-operowym zamierzasz uczynić świat gry).

Edit: BotF-a mam nawet zainstalowanego na laptoku , choć z nieaktualnymi już modami. Jeśli chcesz obejrzeć jak tam wyglądały bitwy to mogę Ci pokazać przy okazji civparty - będę miał okazję sprawdzić co nowego jest w nowych wersjach moich ulubionych modów (a podobno dużo).

Jedną z niedoskonałości BotF jest interfejs, natomiast, jak widzę, BotE, zamiast go ulepszyć, poprowadziło tę niedoskonałość przynajmniej o stopień dalej - interfejs ma tragiczny. Jak oni się spodziewają że gra ma być w takiej sytuacji przyjemnością dla gracza, ja nie mam zupełnie pojęcia. Niby jest parę fajnych usprawnień w innych elementach, ale ten interfejs wszystko zabija. Spróbuję jeszcze pomęczyć się dalej żeby zobaczyć interakcje pomiędzy imperiami...

Swoją drogą to ja, mimo dobrej znajomości BotF, przez pierwsze pół godziny nie zrobiłem nawet jednej tury

[Edited by PAwleus on Sept 30, 2010 at 01:33]

Sept 29, 2010 at 21:33

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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #15]

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Do Twojego projektu z BotF zarekomendowałbym przede wszystkim to co już rekomendowałem do SEV: koncepcję ekspansji poprzez tworzenie federacji (oczywiście zależy to od tego jak bardzo space-operowym zamierzasz uczynić świat gry).

W planach

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Edit: BotF-a mam nawet zainstalowanego na laptoku , choć z nieaktualnymi już modami. Jeśli chcesz obejrzeć jak tam wyglądały bitwy to mogę Ci pokazać przy okazji civparty - będę miał okazję sprawdzić co nowego jest w nowych wersjach moich ulubionych modów (a podobno dużo).

Chętnie

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Swoją drogą to ja, mimo dobrej znajomości BotF, przez pierwsze pół godziny nie zrobiłem nawet jednej tury

Ja zrobiłem około 80 Ale to gra bez planu była.
Oct 01, 2010 at 18:07

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Ceasar Of Rome
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #16]

też sobie sprawdze co to za majstersztyk

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Oct 03, 2010 at 09:06
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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #17]

U mnie tylko wywołało nieprzepartą tęsknotę za BotF-em, no i teraz sobie właśnie gram w Ultimate Dominium Mod - prócz tego że jest to świetny mod, gdzie Ferengi są zastąpieni przez Dominium, włącznie z przerobieniem interfejsu dla nich, to ma poprawione niemal wszystkie bugi BotF-a! Muszę powiedzieć, że jestem pod ogromnym wrażeniem...

Oct 03, 2010 at 11:47

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Ceasar Of Rome
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #18]

Moim zdaniem jest ok, z początku troche trudno było się połapać przy interfejsie ale teraz jest ok

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Oct 03, 2010 at 12:06
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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #19]

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
U mnie tylko wywołało nieprzepartą tęsknotę za BotF-em, no i teraz sobie właśnie gram w Ultimate Dominium Mod - prócz tego że jest to świetny mod, gdzie Ferengi są zastąpieni przez Dominium, włącznie z przerobieniem interfejsu dla nich, to ma poprawione niemal wszystkie bugi BotF-a! Muszę powiedzieć, że jestem pod ogromnym wrażeniem...

Można gdzieś kupić BotF?
Oct 03, 2010 at 12:08

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #20]

Ja swojej nie sprzedaję! Mogę Ci powiedzieć jak ja kilka lat temu kupiłem, a właściwie mój brat kupił dla mnie: znaleźliśmy najtańszą, godną zaufania ofertę przez Amazon.com, a brat zamówił wysyłkę na adres znajomej w Stanach i przelewając jej pieniądze poprosił o odesłanie do Polski - w sumie koszt był poniżej 30$, choć wysyłka była droższa niż sama gra Gra przyszła w stanie idealnym, co tak mnie rozbestwiło, że później nawet kupowałem minilaptopa w Stanach z już bezpośrednią wysyłką.

Oct 03, 2010 at 14:01

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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #21]

Poszukam

Oct 03, 2010 at 15:06

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #22]

Ukazała się nowa wersja Birth of the Empires opisana jako Alfa-6, wersja do ściągnięcia pod tym linkiem:
http://www.botf2.star-trek-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4050

Gra jest cholernie skomplikowana, brakuje czegoś w rodzaju civilopedii czy przeglądania technologii. Czasami odkrywamy nowe technologie które w teorii nam nic nie dają (informacja jest ograniczona tylko do elementów możliwych do budowy jak statki czy budynki).

W zamian otrzymujemy różnorodne opcje wyboru ekspansji (budowa doków na planetach, baz zaopatrzeniowych, technologie), transferu minerałów (budynek zaopatrzenia, transportowce, system zaopatrzenia) to tylko wierzchołek góry lodowej. Wywiad i kontrwywiad, sabotaż, zarządzanie energią na specjalne udoskonalenia, różne rodzaje uzbrojenia powodują że gracz zawsze zastanawia się co jest lepsze - ulepszyć istniejące budynki czy dobudować nowe.


Lista wprowadzonych zmian:
New Views and Events:
- Complete new Khaoron skin
- Reworked some older skins
- New views for ship combat tactics, ship combat orders and ship combat information implemented
- New event for ship combat implemented
- New event for the end game (Game Over) implemented
- Implemented new event for the destruction of a race
- New event on extinction of a race
- Implemented new event for victory
- New Demographics view
- New Top-5 systems view
- New victory conditions view

New Features:
- Khaoron as new playable race
- Space anomalies implemented
- Presentation, Tooltips, AI attention implemented for space anomalies
- Frequency of space anomalies via the options dialog and command set Ini
- Various victory conditions added
- For victory in Optionsdialog and ini file set
- While the game does not disable more changeable options in the Options dialog
- Wireframe sphere around graphics on terraforming planets
- Display of the exact morale change in the behind the Morale Event Impieriumsnachrichtenübersicht
- Implemented event for morale empire extinction of system attack
- Un-buildable orders are shown with a darker background
- Select a resource symbol before construction contract for special buildings (building work without compulsion)
- A new flagship icon
- New shipicon for stealth ships
- Labelled vessels are highlighted with an oval glow
- Observance of avoidance and retreat commands in the fight calculation
- New morale events (flagship destroyed, outpost destroyed, starbase destroyed)
- Switching through systems in trade view with arrow keys

Changes:
- Renewed sequence of calculations during the new round (of ship movements from ship combat system against attack)
- Extension of the statistical calculations to demographics and match points
- Security reports can now be sorted via different parameters (in ascending or descending)
- But can never gain experience
- For negative credits may no longer be built warships
- Building the x-can be built only once per empire or only from a certain race to be removed during system acquisition (eg, distributors)
- If you are affiliated with a Minor Race that can build ships, their system will have a shipyard when they join you
- Troops with troops and descriptions come from StringTable.txt (language dependent)
- Work assignment bars are now displayed slightly rounded off
- Destroyed Empire (human and AI controlled) are now properly removed
- Event in first contact increased font size for breed description
- Increases to maximum Tooltipwidth 300px
- Research at game start a little slower, afterwards a little faster

AI:
- Combat AI implemented
- In assessing the dangerousness of sectors go defensive strengths of vessels is an only half
- The less Terraform options are available, the higher Außenpostenbauprioritäten
- Maneuverability is now relatively strong in the evaluation of offensive and defensive strengths ship
- System-AI largely improved
- War is declared only when really militarily stronger

Bugfixes:
- On ship dismantling ships were not in the fleet added to the Shiphistory
- Ship orders are correctly reset on completion of terraforming, colonization and Substations for all vessels involved
- First contact in event was not for lack of the graphic image displayed in the absence of graphics
- Fixed buffer overflow in internal security points and negative bonuses in the calculation Intel
- Fixed bug when undoing the racial acquaintance between two races (always made known)
- Bug fix in the calculation of the fight beam attack
- Fixed error in the copy constructor and assignment operator for ships
- Are in stock now negative Credit not grant credit huge gifts by diplomacy offer
- Are selected for terraforming planets no longer shown as a straight terra formed when the command changes
- Pointer to display a tooltip does not change now
- Fixed a bug in the display of fleet names of minor race ships

Internal code:
- Optimization of struggle calculation (Performance +)
- Built-in function to the overall chance of winning calculation
- New generic function for drawing a ship (view, view fleet, fight view)
- New general function to clear vessels (and thereby also to be noted that Fleet)
- General function to add new ships to Shiphistory list
- New general function for calculating the required laps for a construction project
- Internal Star Maps (range map) can now be created for individual race
- Star maps are calculated at a central location once and not at various points during next round ()
- New virtual Close () function for event screens (what happens when you close a screen event)
- Static Font object for sector labels no longer needed
- Modified post-frequent increments of iterators in pre-incrememtents (Performance +)
- Implemented in some parts missing const correctness
- Technically revised fleet menu code
- Mouse overs and redraw drastically in all views of the ships
- Pre_increments wherever possible and memset programmed more safely

Data:
- New backgroundmusic for Hayoun, Khaorons and Rotharians
- New Building "Omega Homeyard"
- Spelling mistake fixed
- Added alien-ships in shiplist (but ingame not used yet)
- Recolored small duranium- and energyicon

Feb 02, 2011 at 20:24

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Azazell
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #23]

A jak AI?

Feb 06, 2011 at 16:12

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #24]

Właśnie wkraczam w epokę konfliktów galaktycznych, więc będę miał okazję przetestować dogłębnie.

Na chwilę obecną AI sprawdza się dobrze - AI eksplorują kosmos aż miło (efektywniej niż ja) - paradoksalnie od AI nauczyłem sie stawiac staje kosmiczne...
AI zawierają przymierza, wysuwają żądania (a odmowa nie powoduje wojny), oferują dary. Rasy poboczne też są dobrze zarządzane - w chwili zagrożenia AI się mobilizuje, stanowiąc spory problem dla atakującego.

Wady też są...

Testy w toku. Raport też w toku.

Feb 06, 2011 at 19:31

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Adi Cherryson
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #25]

Można grać w multli?

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Feb 09, 2011 at 00:28

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #26]

Quote:
Adi Cherryson wrote:
Można grać w multli?

W teorii tak (nie sprawdzałem), jednak gra jest ograniczona do 5-ciu różnych ras dla 5-ciu graczy w trybie LAN. Z tego co zdołałem się zorientować, to możliwość gry w większej ilości graczy i tą samą rasą będzie wprowadzona w następnej wersji. NIESTETY chwilowo nie planuje się wersji PBEM, ale jak to mi odpowiedział jeden z opiekunów: "kod gry jest otwarty i jest dostępny pod adresem ..."

[Edited by Andrev on Feb 09, 2011 at 14:51]
Feb 09, 2011 at 14:50

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Azazell
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #27]

Andrev może Elemental war of magic byś przetestował Gra teraz nieźle zaktualizowana i poprawiono wiele byków. Gra sie naprawde fajnie!

Feb 09, 2011 at 22:18

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Adi Cherryson
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #28]

Quote:
Andrev wrote:
NIESTETY chwilowo nie planuje się wersji PBEM, ale jak to mi odpowiedział jeden z opiekunów: "kod gry jest otwarty i jest dostępny pod adresem ..."


Szkoda.

Merthen jak wróci, musiałby się temu przyjrzeć.

Brakuje mi strategicznych gier PBEM na naszym Forum. A to jest naprawdę ciekawa i inspirująca zabawa.

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Feb 10, 2011 at 00:36

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #29]

Quote:
Azazell wrote:
Andrev może Elemental war of magic byś przetestował Gra teraz nieźle zaktualizowana i poprawiono wiele byków. Gra sie naprawde fajnie!


?
Fuj!

A gdzie podboje planet, odgłosy laserów i wyścig technologiczny z marszem imperialnym w tle?
Feb 11, 2011 at 21:19

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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #30]

Quote:
Adi Cherryson wrote:
Quote:
Andrev wrote:
NIESTETY chwilowo nie planuje się wersji PBEM, ale jak to mi odpowiedział jeden z opiekunów: "kod gry jest otwarty i jest dostępny pod adresem ..."


Szkoda.

Merthen jak wróci, musiałby się temu przyjrzeć.

Brakuje mi strategicznych gier PBEM na naszym Forum. A to jest naprawdę ciekawa i inspirująca zabawa.


Zapoznanie się z takim kodem i dobudowanie modułu PBEM to miesiące pracy. Gra mnie aż tak nie zainteresował bym się za to zabrał . Zresztą nie ma co chwytać kilka srok za ogon.
Feb 12, 2011 at 10:04

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #31]

Widać usprawnienia, ale to ciągle nie to - ten prawie zupełny brak mechanizmów pozwalających na minimalizację zbędnego mikrozarządzania jest niemal zabójczy. Pozytywem jest na pewno AI, które już wydaje się znacznie lepsze jeśli chodzi o budowę imperium niż w BotF-ie... chyba że było takie tylko na moim mizernym tle. Ja w sto kilkadziesiąt tur nie potrafiłem Feder... tzn. Koalicją dochrapać się nawet jednego membera (znane AI miało już po 2-3). Szkoda, że nie przetłumaczyli podręcznika, gdyż w ten sposób poważnie ograniczają krąg testerów, nawet mimo tego że w samej grze translacja anglojęzyczna jest niemal 100%, to gra jest na tyle skomplikowana, że mozolne rozpracowywanie jej odpycha, mimo znacznego potencjału. Ciekawy jestem raportu Andreva...

Feb 12, 2011 at 23:35

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #32]

Rzucę odrobinę światła, dzięki informacji uzyskanej od jednego z administratorów (Danke viel, Malle).

Multiplayer:
Jeżeli chodzi o sam tryb multiplayer to możliwa są generalnie trzy opcje:
- wspomniany już LAN,
- "zwykła" gra przez internet,
- tryb hot-seat, który jest namiastką PBEM,

    Z tego co zrozumiałem, to hot-seat osiągany jest poprzez zapisanie własnej tury i przesłanie gry do następnego gracza. Ostatni w kolejce generuje turę.
    Uciążliwe, ale możliwe w realizacji.


Mikrozarządzanie
Tutaj się w całości nie zgodzą z przedmówcą. Co prawda nie za bardzo rozumiem jak działają mechanizmy w grze, ale to co wiem pozwala mi wyrabiać pewną ocenę:
- nie zajmujemy się problemem paliwa ani rodzajem uzbrojenia* do statków,
- nie zajmujemy się transportem surowców* między planetami
    Cała reszta sprowadza się do zarządzania, nawet nie pojedynczymi planetami, ale już całymi systemami. To co może faktycznie przerazić to liczba opcji produkcji planetarnej (gdzie te czasy Stars!, w którym produkowało się tylko kopalnie, fabryki lub flotę?). Obecnie, po 150 turach, zakończyłem fazę ekspansji terytorialnej dysponuję 10-ma systemami, z tego właściwie tylko 2 są produkcyjne. Reszta światów praktycznie nie rozwija się i nie wymaga mojej uwagi*.

    * - nie do końca jest to prawda, szczegóły w przygotowywanym raporcie


Co do ilości testerów i instrukcji - nie przesadzajmy, podstawy są przygotowane w języku niemieckim, a ichnie forum tętni życiem. Fakt faktem, brak szczegółowej instrukcji w języku angielskim jest poważną wadą (część wiedzy uzyskałem poprzez wykorzystanie forum gry), ale to się zmieni wraz ze zbliżaniem się do wersji finalnej gry. Bo po co pisać niekompletną instrukcję?

[Edited by Andrev on Feb 13, 2011 at 08:33]
Feb 13, 2011 at 08:32

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #33]

Odnośnie mikrozarządzania istnieje wiele nieporozumień, gdyż pojęcie to jest różnie rozumiane. Zauważ, że ja użyłem sformułowania "zbędne mikrozarządzanie", gdyż po wcześniejszych dyskusjach na tym forum wydaje mi się najwłaściwsze do zastosowania dla nazwania problemu istnienia niepotrzebnych, żmudnych czynności, które znacznie zmniejszają grywalność. Ani zarządzanie paliwem, ani uzbrojeniem, ani transportem surowców nie określiłbym jako zbędne, choć do zarządzania nimi mogą w grze być użyte zbędne czynności, na skutek niefortunnej implementacji, w ten sposób lokując się w zakresie "zbędnego mikrozarządzania".

Może przejdę do konkretów - co mi przeszkadza w BotE w zakresie "zbędnego mikrozarządzania", i to przeszkadza wielce (nie przeszkadza to innym testerom?), jeśli chce się osiągnąć w grze jak najlepszy wynik:

1. Konieczność sprawdzania, w niemal w każdej turze, stanu zaawansowania w wynajdywaniu
- gra nie informuje o bliskości przełomu technologicznego i nie pozwala na zdefiniowanie automatycznego zachowania działu naukowego w takiej sytuacji
- gra nie pozwala na zdefiniowanie kolejności w jakiej chcemy położyć i jak wielki nacisk na poszczególne pole technologiczne (kolejnym utrudnieniem jest brak możliwości dowiedzenia się o spodziewanych benefitach z wynajdywania danego pola, choć to raczej nie kategoria "zbędnego mikrozarządzania" - było w BotF)
- gra nie informuje o wielkości spodziewanych wydatków dla osiągnięcia przełomu w danym polu (możemy tylko zobaczyć aktualne zaawansowanie i porównać z tym co pamiętamy z poprzedniej tury oraz tym iloma RPs dysponujemy teraz a ile pamiętamy z poprzedniej tury)

2. Konieczność sprawdzania, w niemal każdej turze, stanu niemal każdego systemu
- z uwagi na możliwość budowania tylko 1 obiektu na turę i marnowania się nadwyżki produkcji trzeba ciągle manipulować przy przydzielaniu ludzi do określonych zajęć (i nieefektywnie rozwijać systemy aby była możliwość przeniesienia ich do innego zajęcia)
- konieczność dopasowywania z tury na turę tego jak się system rozwija do ilości populacji w nim (brak możliwości zdefiniowania kierunku rozwoju systemu i pozwolenia AI na zajęcie się szczegółami), tym bardziej że interfejs bardzo utrudnia manipulacje na kolejce produkcyjnej
- konieczność sprawdzania ilości dostępnych w systemie surowców z braniem pod uwagę wyprzedzenia przynajmniej 1 tury (tyle trwa dotarcie surowców po kupieniu ich - co nie jest zwykle korzystne ekonomicznie - lub dotarcie ich z magazynów imperialnych, o ile coś tam jest) lub nawet 2 tur (tyle trwa umieszczenie surowców w magazynach imperialnych i przetransportowanie ich do potrzebującego systemu - musimy też o tym pamiętać w kolejnej turze) w kontekście tego co planujemy do budowy (skąpość dostępnych szlaków zaopatrzenia surowcowego powoduje że często nie możemy na nie liczyć, gdy pojawią się gdzieś braki - dodatkowo, brak możliwości przewożenia żywności, czyli nie można specjalizować systemów w tym zakresie)

3. Konieczność sprawdzania, w niemal każdej turze, stanu niemal każdego okrętu lub floty
- gra nie informuje o dotarciu do celu, ani nie zwraca specjalnej uwagi na obecność wrogich okrętów w pobliżu
- gra nie pozwala na więcej możliwości zdefiniowania automatycznego zachowania okrętów niż 2 podstawowe (unik, atak), więc trzeba wydawać konkretne rozkazy ruchu ręcznie (w dodatku nie da się, o ile wiem, określić dłuższej trasy z użyciem waypointów), co powoduje że przechwyt jest nieefektywny, gdyż trudno określić gdzie znajdzie się przeciwnik w następnej turze (brak możliwości wydania rozkazu przechwytu, nawet ogólnego - w BotF był)
- gra nie pozwala na predefiniowanie zachowań takich jak: automatyczny ruch bezpośrednio po zbudowaniu (było nawet w MoO1), automatycznego włączenia do floty po dotarciu do celu, do określonej floty poruszającej się itp. (w dodatku manipulowanie na okrętach we flocie i pomiędzy flotami jest niezwykle uciążliwe, szczególnie jeśli mamy ich dużo - niemal zupełny brak mechanizmów wspomagających gracza w tym zakresie)

4. Konieczność sprawdzania, w niemal każdej turze, stanu niemal każdej rasy
- gra nie informuje o zmianach w kontakcie rasy z innymi, ani o zmianach w jej traktatach (dodatkowo: trzeba sobie zapisać spodziewane benefity z przyłączenia rasy, które są podane tylko w momencie uzyskania kontaktu - jeśli wierzyć to w grze jest grubo ponad 100 ras więc nawet zaawansowanemu graczowi trudno będzie je spamiętać; także brak jest ułatwień możliwości dowiedzenia się o spodziewanej reakcji na własne propozycje dyplomatyczne - do tej pory nie wiem co trzeba zrobić aby przyłączyć rasę, gdyż np. mimo 78% Acceptance wszystkie moje propozycje Membership, nawet poparte kilkoma tysiącami kredytów i surowców spełzły na niczym)

Z dających się we znaki braków w grze można jeszcze wymienić:
- brak informacji o rasie w systemie - tylko o jego przynależności (było w BotF)
- brak wcześniejszej informacji o sile defensywy systemowej i planetarnej, a także o sile własnego desantu (było w BotF)
- brak widocznych bitew nie pozwala się zorientować co jest w nich efektywne a co nie, no i dodatkowo bawić się na szczeblu taktycznym (było w BotF i dawało dużo satysfakcji, choć w multi było często autorozstrzygane).

Moje dotychczasowe wyniki w grze są właściwie niemal identyczne z podanymi przez Ciebie, gdyż grając na poziomie normal i z pozostałymi standardowymi ustawieniami w 140 turze mam 10 systemów skolonizowanych z 2 centrami produkcyjnymi i z dodatkowym mniejszym dla produkcji sił naziemnych, możliwości pokojowej ekspansji terytorialnej są niemal na ukończeniu (kilka malutkich systemów w okolicy i 1 bardzo dobry po drugiej stronie kwadrantu, więc pewnie nie zdążę dolecieć - jeszcze 10 tur lotu), ale wszystkie systemy nadal rozwijają się, choć większość już nie populacyjnie (i wszystkie zdecydowanie wymagają mojej uwagi), mam wojnę z Klingonami (jakoś te ichnie nazwy nie chcą mi się przyjąć) i kooperację z Cardassianami i Ferengi, Romulanie 1x dokonali mi sabotażu, a Dominium jest daleko i próbuję ostrożnie zwiedzać ich terytorium. Mam wojnę, ale floty wojennej jeszcze nie widziałem i właśnie przygotowuję się do produkcji własnej (dotychczas mam rozproszone 3 stareńkie destroyery, 5 jeszcze starszych scoutów, 3 heavy destroyery, 2 outposty, 1 nowoczesny transportowiec wyładowany żołnierzami (przygotowuję się do inwazji na świat Klingonów w zasięgu, który oni zdobyli Ferengim) i kilka kolonizacyjnych (wynajduję 2 pole na 6 poziomie technologicznym). Niestety widzę, że nie mam już raczej szans na wygraną, z uwagi brak minorów - według zaufanych informacji Ferengi mają ich 5 (przy 9 systemach), a Cardassianie - 2 (przy 18 systemach) - i przegrywam z sąsiadami w konkurencji o kolejnych, mimo całkiem silnej pozycji ekonomicznej. Bez memberów i dużej populacji przyszłość Federacji rysuje się czarno - nie będzie mogła wystawić odpowiednio dużej floty do obrony z uwagi na stosunkowo małe możliwości jej utrzymania i wystarczająco szybko odnawiać strat przez braki w Dilithium. Jeśli będzie mi się jeszcze chciało dalej grać to prawdopodobnie już niedługo będę mógł się przekonać co tak naprawdę potrafi AI militarnie.

Podręcznik do gry wygląda na aktualny i chyba nieźle zrobiony - nie jest tylko przetłumaczony. Mówisz, że część wiedzy uzyskałeś poprzez forum gry - czyżbyś znał anglojęzyczne (ja widzę tylko niemieckie), czy też posługujesz się wystarczająco niemieckim? Tyle że wtedy chyba powinien wystarczyć podręcznik...

Podsumowując, ja wiem że to tylko Alfa i zauważam poprawę (gra jest dość estetycznie zrobiona i grywalna, choć z dużym samozaparciem), ale ta poprawa wydaje mi się zbyt mizerna w polach, które uważam za ważne - taki już widocznie los wielu projektów niekomercyjnych. Gorzej, że także wielu komercyjnych. Niestety wskazywanie przez autorów dostępnego kodu gry nic nie daje takim osobom jak ja, które nie mają wystarczającej ilości czasu aby wyuczyć się programowania jako hobby (tym bardziej że, jak zauważył Merthen, potem, nawet żeby tylko zacząć, potrzeba prawdopodobnie jeszcze dużo czasu na zapoznanie się z kodem gry).

Feb 13, 2011 at 18:53

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #34]

Ale żeś elaborat odstawił... ale to bardzo dobrze.

Gra nie informuje o "bliskości osiągnięcia" danego techu (jaki to miałoby sens?), ale o osiągnięciu danego poziomu. Wielkości wydatków można oszacować po postępie badań, jeśli przydzielisz 100% zasobów (lub innej) - ale fakt, przydało by się.
Gra pozwala na zdefiniowanie nacisku na daną dziedzinę rozwoju, a po jej osiągnięciu punkty są przydzielane na tę samą dziedzinę. Co do benefitów z techów, to wraz z kolejnymi wersjami mają być dostępne opisy co dany tech nam daje, a także przewodnik obrazujący jakie technologie i do czego są niezbędne - czyli jakie musisz mieć zaawansowanie w techach aby budować pancerniki itp.
Nadwyżka produkcji nie marnuje się, lecz jest kierowana na handel (kasa). Ilość populacji jest obrazowana przez ilość "pól" która jest adekwatna do bieżącej populacji / max populacji. Przyznaję, że gra informuje o przybyciu kolejnego "obywatela" ale nie pisze gdy są oni wolni.
Jeśli chodzi o minerały to są specjalne budynki zapewniające natychmiastowy dostęp do wszystkich zgromadzonych minerałów w twoim imperium.

To jednak wersja wstępna, więc nie oczekujmy produktu "idealnego". Co do forum - zarejestrowałem się i piszę po angielsku - w ten właśnie sposób uzyskałem wskazówki na temat np. bombardowania czy zasięgu statków, które było dla mnie czarną magią.

Feb 14, 2011 at 14:59

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Malle
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #35]

hi, if I may, I might have some infos about the game that could help here.

First of all this post of mine here explains many gameplay and game controls issues one might have: http://botf2.star-trek-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4101

About the ones mentioned here by Pawleus:

1. When above 80% of technological progress, a not-so-small chance for a sudden breakthrough is given without any RP percentages needed on assignment there. You might want to check that out, don't know if you already know about it. There's no notification of that in-game, also no option to automatically shift RPs to other areas in that case (and in the case of surplus RP, i.e. when you are 99% complete and have 100% allocation of RP in that area effectively wasting RPs the next turn). This level of optimization is currently not within scope of programming, also it is not always clear if you want to use the sudden breakthrough option or instead want to get the tech as soon as possible, i.e. take the risk of over-spending RPs on that area to get it quickly.

Allocating research points is possible in research menu, hence you can define areas which you want to be researched with priority.

2. building more than one object a turn also involves many micromanagement issues, especially with resources needed to build them and the possibility to quickly transform any specialized system (let's say a research system) into an intel system in about no-time, which is not what we want gameplay-wise. Having a bit of waste here from time to time is "bearable" IMO, since all players "suffer" under the same rules in this case.


About planetary management automization:

Auto-build (AI governor for colony management) can be activated system-wise by going to Empire->Systems menu, and there clicking on a system of your choice and pressing the 'a' key on your keyboard. It then tries to build meaningful things whenever build queue of that system is empty. It cannot be set to different goals however, so you can't tell the governor to focus on ship-building for example. It does what it seems best-fitting for this system.

The governor is into effect as long as you press 'a' again in the Empire->Systems menu. you see the difference immediately, a system set to auto-build has a red-colored "auto-build" mark in that menu.
Basically it is the AI that controls this particular system then. It looks up which structures can be built according to system resources storage and then decides for one of them to be built. Sometimes even buys buildings/ships when you have the credits. It also sets workers to places and puts structures that require energy up in energy menu.
In Alpha7 it is planned to have a menu for the governor to allow/disallow him buying, scrapping, reallocating labor units, etc., also to tell him which direction the colony should be developed to.
Right now, it's just a testing feature, that's why it's a bit hidden.You can always interrupt the governor by filling the build queue manually. Then all items in the queue will be built and after the last item was built and the queue is empty again, the auto-build automatically kicks in again. So you don't have to press 'a' in the menu to completely switch it off when you decide to take manual command again over that system for a short period of time.
So basically, it kicks in only when the build queue is empty.

In late-game, you can try to build resource allocators (if you have more than 5 colonies in total). These allocators let all your colonies including your homeworld access that specific system's storage for the given resource type. It'a "master-resource-route" so to speak. Very powerful. Yet you should build it in a safe system deep within your own territory and of course with enough mines producing enough of the resource for all your colonies (have a look at planetary bonusses for that resource for example).

You can get information on enemy fortifications when hovering your mouse over the enemy system on galaxy map once you are in that sector with your fleet. Then a short tooltip pops up with short information on which orbital platforms are there and which ones are activated although activation status can and mostly will change once there is a battle fleet threatening that system on the AI-side.

We also put up our german manual as an html manual here: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvn.star-trek-games.com%2Fbirth%2Fhandbuch%2FHandbuch.html

In order to understand battle outcomes better, we have a combat simulator that is used in-game in the background when you hit "Fight", where you can see a tactical view of the combat or statistical data for repeated combats: http://botf2.star-trek-games.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1731


Some of the issues Pawleus mentioned are already taken into consideration. Most things dealing with lack of information on game events like arriving enemy/friendly ships or change in barometer status with other races were not implemented because other things had higher priority. The game is a hobbyist free one, so there's no commercial company or anything behind it which should explain that manpower and time for the project is kind of short for us . Also you should always bear in mind that the more information you have, sometimes micromanagement increases instead of decreases, simply because each fleet news message kind of spams up the news window, i.e. you soon get tired of reading "Fleet XY has arrived at sector Z" and this like a dozen times each turn. Also allocating newly-built ships to a given fleet on galaxy map bears risks: First of all, is that fleet within range, i.e. can the ship join up with the fleet or is its range too short for that? Second, you might forget to cancel the vector assignment of a specific system and 20 turns later wonder and be angry about having your ships added to the wrong fleet automatically dozens of sectors away where they rather should be, just because it slipped your memory. Problem is that forgetting this could have major impact on the outcome of battles thus the fate of your empire, more so than having to manually click and assign them to fly somewhere ship-by-ship. Kind of minimizes the chance of having major misallocations of your fleets. If you forget a ship, it's just one ship, and not 20 turns with ships automatically produced and sent to the wrong direction. Especially when there would be the useful option to suppress news entries for ships built in a system with vectorized target sectors, since you probably don't want to read about each ship such a system churns out turn-by-turn cause you normally wouldn't have to assign orders to such a ship, so such a vectorizing would probably mean it's done silently increasing the chance of you forgetting to reset vectors if needed.

Some things are not that easy to implement to reduce micromanagement than one might think at first...

[Edited by Malle on Feb 14, 2011 at 16:23]

Feb 14, 2011 at 16:17

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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #36]

To otrzymałeś PAwleusie odpowiedz .
Jak nie wypali plan z Ciekawymi Czasami to pewnie zdecyduje się zapoznać z kodem Birth of the Empires.

Malle
Combat simulator file is corrupted?

Feb 14, 2011 at 17:05

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Malle
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #37]

just the wrong linke there (the ../files/.. was superfluous). Now it should work .

Feb 14, 2011 at 17:14

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #38]

Ach, yes - welcome Malle at CIV.ORG.PL forum!

Feb 14, 2011 at 19:00

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Malle
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #39]

thanks Andrev!

Feb 14, 2011 at 19:36

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Merthen
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #40]

Quote:
Malle wrote:
just the wrong linke there (the ../files/.. was superfluous). Now it should work .

thanks
and Welcome
Feb 15, 2011 at 08:21

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #41]

Quote:
Andrev wrote:
Gra nie informuje o "bliskości osiągnięcia" danego techu (jaki to miałoby sens?), ale o osiągnięciu danego poziomu.


Jaki sens? Głęboki
- w sytuacji istnienia mechanizmu breakthrough (jak w BotE): bardzo przydatna może być informacja o znalezieniu się w obszarze breaktrough (wydaje się b. proste do wykonania), gdyż wtedy można zdecydować się na przeniesienie nacisku na inną dziedzinę badań (gdy nam się za bardzo nie spieszy z danym polem) pozwalając zaoszczędzić RPs (jeszcze lepszy byłby mechanizm pozwalający nam predefiniować zachowanie gry w takim momencie, pozwalający na przenoszenie nacisku automatycznie)
- w sytuacji marnowania nadmiaru RPs przeznaczonych na wynalezienie danego poziomu pola (jak w BotE): przydatna może być informacja że przy danych wydatkach dojdzie do takiego zmarnowania (choć zupełnie nie rozumiem po co jest to marnowanie i dlaczego po prostu ten nadmiar nie może być automatycznie przeznaczany choćby na następny poziom w danym polu)

Quote:
Andrev wrote:
Nadwyżka produkcji nie marnuje się, lecz jest kierowana na handel (kasa).


Według moich obserwacji nie jest to prawdą, a uważam to za tragiczne rozwiązanie. Na kasę jest kierowana produkcja tylko przy kupowaniu (pomijając oczywiście trade goods), i to tylko w tej części, która zwraca koszty np.: jeśli deklarowana produkcja jest 1000, a koszt produkcji czegoś wynosi 700, to, po kupnie (chcemy kupić, gdyż obawiamy się że spadnie morale i rzeczywista produkcja spadnie poniżej 700 więc coś ważnego się nie wyprodukuje w 1 turę, i to mimo że koszty kupna są o ok. 1/3 większe niż 700, więc celowo doprowadzamy do marnotrawstwa, dla uniknięcia ryzyka niezbudowania), w następnej turze otrzymamy dodatkowo w imperialnych dochodach tylko tyle ile wydaliśmy na zakup (więc, prócz dobrowolnego marnowania środków w zawyżonym koszcie kupna, gra zmusza nas do zmarnowania 300 produkcji, o ile nic z tym nie zrobimy - ten przymus jest zły, gdyż wymusza na graczu zbędne mikrozarządzanie, a więc w dochodach powinno pojawić się 1000!). Tak tez było i w BotF-ie (z wyjątkiem zawyżonych kosztów kupna), ale nie znaczy to, że było to dobre. Jak horrendalna jest skala marnotrawstwa można się przekonać jeśli w systemie z produkcją 1000 chce się zbudować coś za 50 - 95% produkcji jest marnowane! To jest absolutnie chore, i takie też było w BotF-ie, więc zupełnie niezrozumiałym jest dla mnie podtrzymywanie istnienia takiej sytuacji.

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Ze względu na niespodziewanego gościa (przynajmniej przeze mnie) reszta będzie po angielsku, gdyż tego wymaga grzeczność. Za utrudnienia przepraszamy

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Hi Malle! Thanks for your efforts to understand my comments (you probably use one of autotranslators but I know what kind of quality they are of) and you are welcome.

I'm ashamed as I have to admit now that I see I've completely failed in searching the net because otherwise you couldn't dismiss some of my points just by citing a post from another forum. Now, my turn in citing...

Quote:
Malle wrote:
When above 80% of technological progress, a not-so-small chance for a sudden breakthrough is given without any RP percentages needed on assignment there.


For the record, I think that it should be implemented in a more similar way to MoO1: without any RP percentages on assignment the progress should gradually regress.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
There's no notification of that in-game, also no option to automatically shift RPs to other areas in that case (and in the case of surplus RP, i.e. when you are 99% complete and have 100% allocation of RP in that area effectively wasting RPs the next turn). This level of optimization is currently not within scope of programming, also it is not always clear if you want to use the sudden breakthrough option or instead want to get the tech as soon as possible, i.e. take the risk of over-spending RPs on that area to get it quickly.


I'm aware you must know BotF, very well, so it's beyond me why having this experience you've left this behavior unchanged when possibility of such a waste of RPs forces players to anxiously look into their research window almost every turn. This is one of examples of unnecessary micromanagement. In this case most of the pressure on a player could easily be alleviate not by any sofisticated optimization (although it might be great if implemented later) but simply by allowing the surplus to be autoassigned to the next level of the same techfield.

Regarding the optimization, what you say is unclear could be easily clear allowing a player to define what his current preferences are (notice, please, the difference in approach: allowing, not forcing - a player is forced even if he technically has a choice but he's aware that choosing otherwise he's destined to have huge losses).

Quote:
Malle wrote:
2. building more than one object a turn also involves many micromanagement issues, especially with resources needed to build them and the possibility to quickly transform any specialized system (let's say a research system) into an intel system in about no-time, which is not what we want gameplay-wise. Having a bit of waste here from time to time is "bearable" IMO, since all players "suffer" under the same rules in this case.


Resources needed to build them? I can't see how it could be a problem. Perhaps you should look eg. at Space Empires 5, and I could imagine much better implementations.

The second possibility is much more valid. However, even if we consider it of such importance that one object a turn is our only option it doesn't mean players have to suffer! I know that misery likes company but you really think that one is fond of suffering only because one knows that others suffer, too? No, one will just choose to stop playing the game! Why risk it when in this case it's so simple to stop all the players to suffer? It's enough if all surplus in production is changed to credits as if it was used for trade goods.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
Auto-build (AI governor for colony management) can be activated system-wise by going to Empire->Systems menu, and there clicking on a system of your choice and pressing the 'a' key on your keyboard. It then tries to build meaningful things whenever build queue of that system is empty.


Nice to know about it - it's a place to start, and it's great that after all you remember about it.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
In Alpha7 it is planned to have a menu for the governor to allow/disallow him buying, scrapping, reallocating labor units, etc., also to tell him which direction the colony should be developed to.


This is simply wonderful - this is what I expect of this kind of current game.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
You can get information on enemy fortifications when hovering your mouse over the enemy system on galaxy map once you are in that sector with your fleet. Then a short tooltip pops up with short information on which orbital platforms are there and which ones are activated although activation status can and mostly will change once there is a battle fleet threatening that system on the AI-side.


I understand why one can see enemy's active orbitals only having one's ships in his system but why one can't see how many orbitals (total) enemy has only having the system in sensor range (as in BotF)? Also, why one can't see friend's active orbitals having one's ships in his system? Why one can't see opponent's security forces having ships in his system? I hope the answer is: "Because it's Alfa" not "Because we've forgotten". (I may be wrong with my questions here as in BotE I'm militarily still a rookie)

Quote:
Malle wrote:
We also put up our german manual as an html manual here: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvn.star-trek-games.com%2Fbirth%2Fhandbuch%2FHandbuch.html


I unfortunately often forget autotranslators are better than nothing but it's only because reading their results is in most of their parts a waste of time, frequently. I'm afraid what's under this link is a perfect example.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
Also you should always bear in mind that the more information you have, sometimes micromanagement increases instead of decreases, simply because each fleet news message kind of spams up the news window, i.e. you soon get tired of reading "Fleet XY has arrived at sector Z" and this like a dozen times each turn.


Micromanagement increases only if this information gives you nothing but headache. However, when such stream of information is autosorted and autofiltered according to player's wishes, when klicking on it can move him to a place he wishes to be and returning to the news window he can see at what position he was at the moment of klicking it reduces unnecessary micromanagement greatly. Yes, he can still get tired of this stream at some point (depending on implementation, player's preferences and skills) but without such mechanisms the game becomes unbearable much, much earlier.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
Also allocating newly-built ships to a given fleet on galaxy map bears risks: First of all, is that fleet within range, i.e. can the ship join up with the fleet or is its range too short for that? Second, you might forget to cancel the vector assignment of a specific system and 20 turns later wonder and be angry about having your ships added to the wrong fleet automatically dozens of sectors away where they rather should be, just because it slipped your memory. Problem is that forgetting this could have major impact on the outcome of battles thus the fate of your empire, more so than having to manually click and assign them to fly somewhere ship-by-ship. Kind of minimizes the chance of having major misallocations of your fleets. If you forget a ship, it's just one ship, and not 20 turns with ships automatically produced and sent to the wrong direction. Especially when there would be the useful option to suppress news entries for ships built in a system with vectorized target sectors, since you probably don't want to read about each ship such a system churns out turn-by-turn cause you normally wouldn't have to assign orders to such a ship, so such a vectorizing would probably mean it's done silently increasing the chance of you forgetting to reset vectors if needed.


No, no, no... What weird implementation you are thinking of? You vector those ships to few important areas or fleets and those vectors and ships should be seen at general galactic map at first glance - how you could forget about such things even for 1 turn? In a simple but very helpful way it's already been done in MoO1 almost 20 years ago - one has to handle thousands of ships there. Since then I've seen it in many games and it's never been a problem in a way you describe it.

Fleet out of range? Why the game couldn't just notify a player? It could even handle the situation automatically according to player's predefined preferences.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
Some things are not that easy to implement to reduce micromanagement than one might think at first...

Nothing is easy, even death, before one figures out how to do it well. Some things are easier because there are working examples out there.

Don't get me wrong. I see some huge improvements in comparison to BotF and I was actually very impressed by the high quality of this Alfa when I tried 5.1. However, you know, Alfa6 is still so far away from what I expect of a good game that, in the situation when I see it's great potential, what it promises actually hurts me.

Ending, I'm not sure you've understood my previous post, especially what those 4 basic points there mean and why they are so important, although I hope you know about them from your own experience and it's just the lack of time to perfect the game is behind the reason that knowing about them isn't seen in-game. If, however, you are interested in understanding me better I could translate it to English.

[Edited by PAwleus on Feb 15, 2011 at 15:39]
Feb 15, 2011 at 15:11

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Malle
Status: Novice

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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #42]

thanks to both of you too for welcoming me here,

well I've cited myself (Malvoisin=Malle=me) and I've edited the post in question on botf2 forums just recently (in fact the info about the >80% tech breakthrough I added parallel to writing my initial post here so you could not really know about it) while answering Andrev's questions so there's nothing to be ashamed of, really .

botf had the regressing Research points, we decided not to have them because we think scientific papers especially in natural sciences do not have an expiration date so saved work is saved, much like the major technological achievements, which do not regress also. Given that, we thought the minor ones leading to new research data (RPs) should not expire either. One could say sometimes research leads into the wrong way and scientific data has to be thrown away but this would not depend on having more or less research percentages allocated there over time but belongs to research point needs in general to achieve a specific major tech.

In order for the player to not feel the need to look up research menu each turn (which - after a bit of playing and extrapolating current progress - should not be necessary anyway) there is this "blurred" chance of succeeding in tech development when >80%. Later-on when percentage gain is mostly only 3-5% per turn due to extensive RP costs, there is not much need to either look up research very often nor add these percentages (once over 100%, then probably you reached 101-104%, i.e. 1-4% surplus which translates into 0,5-2% surplus for the newer tech level since that one mostly has double costs or even more) to the next level (imagine technological regress from MoO1 here, mostly people want to research one area at 100% allocation and research the next area in the row leaving the old one at 0% allocation so having a surplus there would mean it is probably getting lost anyway if we would have a regress like in moo1 so we decided to not have it but instead not allow to have surplus or transferred RP either).

So the only time when surplus has some effect is in early turns and mostly in early turns the player has a pretty quiet "build-your-empire-up" experience with not-so-much micromanagement (just a few colonies, ships, etc.), so he has a bit time to look up research menu from time to time. The better he learns progress by heart and the higher his gameplay experiences are the less he needs to look there, in the end it doesn't bother me much to look things up there. Mostly I know when I'm near completion, then I go to the menu and see e.g. that I am at 84%, then I reallocate the 100% to another area and wait for random breakthrough.

What I could imagine here is an automization to do exactly this, stopping when over 80% and reassigning percentages either clock- or counterclock-wise. But again, adding surplus to the next level should not be necessary according to what I said above. It should also reflect the idea that research is not that strictly predictable and done by just funding enough research departments but that there is also some sort of random breakthrough thing in it, some influence of "genuity" of a researcher not to be represented by pure research points investments.


I do not know Space Empires 5 nor MoO1 if I'm honest, well I played MoO1 and 2 as a child but I really do not remember it quite well anymore..

Anyway, I'm curious how it can be handled so that let's say if I have 20xType8 Fabricators (i.e. a lot of Industry power on my hands) in a 25 bn. system and as always, not many resources or mines, and I decide to build let's say a dozen frigates, which can then be built mostly in 2-3 turns but each of them cost a lot of resources when compared to other structures and object that can usually be built, so how can I handle it to not have this particular decision cost me that many resources that other systems simply run out of resources in the turns in between. Later-on when you have resource allocators and stuff, your "daily production" in all your systems mostly relies on a handful of systems producing enough resources and mostly you do not stockpile them cause that would be a bit of a waste.

So if such a system then builds these frigates it dries out and empties the resource flow quickly leading to a stand-still in production in the other systems. Now I know there would be ways to prevent that from happening but it would involve micromanagement and of course I would need to tell the player "no, you can't do that or your fancy subatomic simulators which you also want to have cannot be built in 5 turns in the other systems". And not to mention how easy it would be to rebuild a lost major fleet (given you have enough resources). In the end resources and fabricators would get such a decisive meaning in the game, they would put all other ways of playing the game into the deep shadows I fear. But if there's a good implementation in Space Empires 5, I'd be glad to be introduced in it by someone.


You can see the opponent's security forces, it's just the AI is not capable of building them right now . This is something for the next Alpha version to be implemented. Right now, the AI only bombards systems and bribes your minors away from you. It cannot invade or defend against invasions other than by what population offers as planetary defense (mostly not much since it's just a handful of invisible militia troops). In multiplayer though, you would see the defenses your human opponent has stationed there.


To change surplus production into credits is something worth thinking about. Right now, if you take a look, when build queue is empty you already get income from trade goods and it depends on how many fabricators are manned. But it is next-to-nothing (each manned fabricator gives +1 Credits on basic system credits production, I know this formula can be improved,i.e. there could be a factor that reflects tech upgrade level and/or a higher value could be taken here, but this is a one-liner in code; having surplus IP translate like-wise would be a bit more work in code).


I know google autotranslation is messy, but it's a start (better than nothing). btw. it's more meant for those who want to help translate the manual and use google translation as a start.


We are discussing ways right now to have messages about fleet movements. One way that I particularly like is similar to good old Civ1, where you could see enemy unit movement (could be selected in preferences menu) when such a unit was within visible range of your empire. Translated to BotE galaxy map this would mean at the beginning of each turn you could see your fleet symbols moving along their waypoints instead of just being presented the new state, and you could optionally see enemy movements too (their fleet symbols would move too). That way no messages are needed, you can quickly see what's going on on your borders and with your own ships and also detect fleet symbols which aren't moving (as they probably should) so you see idle units then. You loose one turn that way, that's clear, but it's a rather quick way, doesn't involve more text.

Vectoring to sectors (with a message when the sector is no longer within range) will probably be implemented the way you said with a graphical representation (i.e. vector on map). I was thinking a bit too complicated there .


I think I understood the rest of what you wrote, I posted it google-translated in our forums too and picked out stuff to be discussed in the other threads there dedicated to the issues you mentioned.

To sum it up, I think once the vectors are in (I think the surplus production and IP waste is not that big of a problem, mostly your fabricators are working to capacity and if not, all you need to do is adjusting strategies a bit so that in case you don't have much more to build/improve with your fabricators, you just switch personnel to your upgraded research, intel buildings or mines), most issues should be solved. Maybe we can make a comprehensive short list here what still needs to be in it to be "bearable to play". There is an older list here: http://botf2.star-trek-games.com/viewtopic.php?p=64416#p64416 (sometimes phpBB3 is acting weird and you need to scroll a few posts up to see it).

maybe one more thing, the level of optimization in strategy should not be 100% when playing a game like bote. Of course we try to make it possible to come close there but looking up research menu each turn or each system to reassign labor units in order not to waste any kind of production is maybe a bit too much wanted. The game is mostly designed for multiplayer games and there it should run quickly and of course, there should be mistakes like "oh no, my colony ship has been stuck for 10 turns without doing anything" cause especially in LAN games, this is simply fun if you hear your friends "curse" like that . The intention is that the game is played, not optimized to the extreme. If things went non-optimal, well, it was probably because of slippery memory and this is exactly one thing that the game is intended to improve while playing: your level of concentration and capability to memorize things (as a kind of bonus side-effect while playing). Also it should help being a bit more lenient on yourself and refocus on what's more important/effective spending time on. If you've lost then it was probably not because of the summed-up loss of IP production due to surplus waste (same for RP), but some other more decisive events in-game, i.e. having underestimated strength of an enemy, not having signed that specific alliance treaty with that smaller empire leading to that empire signing an alliance with your enemies and later-on crushing you.

Still, reports on changing barometer statusses of minors are an example of what a player mostly does not like to look up each turn and is not intended for him to keep in mind all the time. But there should be a more clever way to implement it than just a message like "Relationship towards minor X has worsened", but more like a demand from minor X for credits which does not occur instantly, sometimes not at all up to the point where the minor leaves your empire, but probability of such a demand increases when the relationship gets worse (mostly due to another major empire doing diplomatic sabotage on your empire or trying to bribe / give gifts to the minor in question). Otherwise it would not really be possible anymore to surprise an enemy that way. Actually, doing bribing and diplomatic sabotage should stay unnoticed anyway in official diplomatic barometer, so in fact there shouldn't be any message and no barometer change (only an invisible barometer change reflecting the false game your minor is playing with you when being successfully influenced by an enemy intelligence service preparing the minor for accepting a bribing offer to leave your empire or cancel other contracts he has with you), i.e. that you can see an immediate barometer change is more a bug than a feature.

[Edited by Malle on Feb 15, 2011 at 19:01]

Feb 15, 2011 at 17:11

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #43]

Quote:
Malle wrote:
botf had the regressing Research points, we decided not to have them because we think scientific papers especially in natural sciences do not have an expiration date so saved work is saved, much like the major technological achievements, which do not regress also.


I think this is a mistake because:

- reality works in a different way
Listen to American fears that they are already regressing in the area of nuclear warfare. They stopped funding its development 20-30 years ago and now it's not just the case that people having the unique experience in the area have moved to other activities but the case that these people are dying of age leaving no successors they could transfer this experience to. You see, there is quite a lot of very valuable knowledge that is only in human minds and cannot be translated on paper at all, or just in an easy way.

- you are missing my point
I haven't realized the way BotF works in this way probably because I've played it having my instincts tuned by MoO1 so I've instinctively been preventing this to happen (BotF is one of flawed successors of MoO1, after all ). However, this regress is not about loosing any major technological achievements but just loosing some progress leading to them.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
In order for the player to not feel the need to look up research menu each turn (which - after a bit of playing and extrapolating current progress - should not be necessary anyway) there is this "blurred" chance of succeeding in tech development when >80%. Later-on when percentage gain is mostly only 3-5% per turn due to extensive RP costs, there is not much need to either look up research very often nor add these percentages (once over 100%, then probably you reached 101-104%, i.e. 1-4% surplus which translates into 0,5-2% surplus for the newer tech level since that one mostly has double costs or even more) to the next level (imagine technological regress from MoO1 here, mostly people want to research one area at 100% allocation and research the next area in the row leaving the old one at 0% allocation so having a surplus there would mean it is probably getting lost anyway if we would have a regress like in moo1 so we decided to not have it but instead not allow to have surplus or transferred RP either).


I see our experience must be different because:
- for me in BotE it's much more than 3-5% as researching 5 level fields just using homesystem and assigning to the one currently being emphasized just about 70% RPs (the rest was in different fields because I expected the possibility of breakthrough to kick in much earlier than 80% of progress) I've noticed 20-30% of difference in progress from turn to turn. I can only imagine how much more it could have been being better in acquiring members and not being forced to depend scientifically just on one system.
- even such seemingly small gains as 1-2% are essential in building the snowball effect much faster than your opponent so even in such games as BotF or BotE they allow for easy victory if your opponent neglects them. They are not war games - they are 4X games! There is a huge difference.
- I'm not sure about BotE, but allocating 100% RPs to a field I've always considered a mistake in BotF as it could hurt you badly not just in this way. There is espionage, after all, too. If enemy tries to sabotage your science then you have several times lower probability it affects your currently emphasized field (that might cost you a lot) if you allocate research to several different fields (at least 1%)

Quote:
Malle wrote:
I do not know Space Empires 5 nor MoO1 if I'm honest, well I played MoO1 and 2 as a child but I really do not remember it quite well anymore..


I would recommend refreshing your memory about MoO1, at least, as it's an easily available abandonware (there is a relevant subforum here as well). There is no need to reinvent the wheel and I think that the philosophy behind this game is simply great (not its exact implementation, of course).

Quote:
Malle wrote:
Anyway, I'm curious how it can be handled so that let's say if I have 20xType8 Fabricators (i.e. a lot of Industry power on my hands) in a 25 bn. system and as always, not many resources or mines, and I decide to build let's say a dozen frigates, which can then be built mostly in 2-3 turns but each of them cost a lot of resources when compared to other structures and object that can usually be built, so how can I handle it to not have this particular decision cost me that many resources that other systems simply run out of resources in the turns in between.
...
So if such a system then builds these frigates it dries out and empties the resource flow quickly leading to a stand-still in production in the other systems. Now I know there would be ways to prevent that from happening but it would involve micromanagement and of course I would need to tell the player "no, you can't do that or your fancy subatomic simulators which you also want to have cannot be built in 5 turns in the other systems". And not to mention how easy it would be to rebuild a lost major fleet (given you have enough resources). In the end resources and fabricators would get such a decisive meaning in the game, they would put all other ways of playing the game into the deep shadows I fear. But if there's a good implementation in Space Empires 5, I'd be glad to be introduced in it by someone


In such games as MoO1 or SE5, apart from the early game, dozen frigates is nothing, and you can't rebuild major fleets fast (in SE5, at least without insane amounts orbital shipyards that alone could break your economy even without having fleets to support). As I mentioned we count ships in thousands there (many fleets of thousands ships in MoO1 just for one empire, and many fleets of hundreds ships in SE5 for one empire but in SE5 its 3D combat-engine has problems with such numbers, especially because one could have tens of thousands of units such as fighters there). You just need to have your needs tailored to your economy or vice versa - it's no different in BotE and BotF although you are restricted to one item per turn. One can always do more, have bigger fleets, having stronger economy, but it takes time to develop - no different than in BotF where you can be militarily rushed by an opponent that neglects his economy for a time being. But there is no way to be able to build valuable big ships just in 1 turn.

I still can't see where you see the problem with resources - it's no different from the situation that is now in-game. There are some very costly items to build in homesystems and empires have to feed them. Not having economy strong enough (stockpiled resources available for homesystem somewhere, in this case) you are not able to add them to a queue and I can't see why it has to be different having an option to built more than one a turn: not having available resources for all of the turn production you couldn't be able to add all of them. Adding them you remove resources for them - no different than it's now. Where is your problem?

Economy has decisive meaning in 4X games. If you change that the game will stop being 4X. Of course just having strong economy is not enough but it's necessary foundation for winning the late game... if you do not loose the game earlier building it. BotE doesn't change that and this is good. My point is it forces a player to do unnecessary micromanagement to win.

Explaining the way SE5 works is a way easier said than done - I consider it the most complicated 4X game I've ever played, after all, and although I can say I love it I'm not prepared to explain how it works to somebody that hasn't even seen it - sorry. All I can tell you is that this game is great but it's flawed, too (mostly in details and not being finished)

Quote:
Malle wrote:
To change surplus production into credits is something worth thinking about.


This is the only way I can see to make the game in this regard playable for fun without introducing the option of building many items a turn.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
We are discussing ways right now to have messages about fleet movements. One way that I particularly like is similar to good old Civ1, where you could see enemy unit movement (could be selected in preferences menu) when such a unit was within visible range of your empire. Translated to BotE galaxy map this would mean at the beginning of each turn you could see your fleet symbols moving along their waypoints instead of just being presented the new state, and you could optionally see enemy movements too (their fleet symbols would move too). That way no messages are needed, you can quickly see what's going on on your borders and with your own ships and also detect fleet symbols which aren't moving (as they probably should) so you see idle units then. You loose one turn that way, that's clear, but it's a rather quick way, doesn't involve more text.


Such system could be good only having small amounts of ships in-game and an option to look at the whole quadrant. Otherwise players won't even remember what really happened. From my own experience it's much better to have a system of messages that a player can shape heavily and tune to his needs, supported by a system of replays of movements. That latter one only limited to single or PBEM games, of course.

Quote:
Malle wrote:
The game is mostly designed for multiplayer games and there it should run quickly and of course, there should be mistakes like "oh no, my colony ship has been stuck for 10 turns without doing anything" cause especially in LAN games, this is simply fun if you hear your friends "curse" like that .


I'd like to assure you that when I think of a gameplay I think of a multiplayer and that there is no chance that seeing not just me but the others suffering will make fun for me. Sorry that I have to repeat this latter part, but I prefer other comments, like: "Wow, you struck me so hard that I lost my pants somewhere during the flight"
Feb 15, 2011 at 21:44

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Andrev
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #44]

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
Listen to American fears that they are already regressing in the area of nuclear warfare. They stopped funding its development 20-30 years ago and now it's not just the case that people having the unique experience in the area have moved to other activities but the case that these people are dying of age leaving no successors they could transfer this experience to. You see, there is quite a lot of very valuable knowledge that is only in human minds and cannot be translated on paper at all, or just in an easy way.


Good point PAwelus. But it is just a game, not reality.
I think that the best choice is copying the best solutions from other 4X game, not from "reality".
Regressing points are interesting idea, but too complicated.
Feb 16, 2011 at 09:10

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #45]

For me, it's very weird when I see that I've just researched the next level in the field (a major technology achievement!) that has currently no funds assigned. And what about sabotaging the science? Does it work that different in BotE when compared with BotF?

Feb 16, 2011 at 15:08

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Malle
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #46]

take it this way: once a major technological achievement seems within reach (i.e. >80%) then funding is either enough to "ship the thing home sometime in the nearer future", i.e. you won't know exactly when but it's just a matter of time, or else, the researchers were successful in raising private or public support funds (similar to public support for ships) since they could convince people that a major breakthrough could be achieved with their help soon enough. I agree to Andrev here though, when putting in realism, nearly everything is possible . Still, that's why code is open-source, a regress is something like two lines of code to implement so optionally this could be made available in a mod or later-on selectable in preferences menu.

botf btw. was like moo1 in that respect. I just mentioned major achievement regress as a "logical" consequence that botf and moo1 missed. At least I'd think it would be logical in this case.

about tech progress, yes, at first 2-3 tech levels, you mostly got 20-30% or even 50% gain per turn when assigning 100% to one tech field. But that's why I said in this case you have the time to check in there from time to time (also to split up percentages to let's say 33% or 50% in order to increase probability for more sudden breakthroughs) because at the beginning of the game you don't have much else to do to manage your empire.

about SE5 and MoO1, I'll see if people at our forums have experiences with it. It's kind of time-costy to get into a game, not to mention that you already describe as the most complicated one you ever played .


Edit: About science sabotage, it works similar to botf, you mostly end up blowing enemy scientific buildings up or destroy current RP production of the selected major (or in the long-term infiltrating research centers and writing false papers, i.e. false data that is void in the end, i.e. lost). But I prefer to steal ships that I espionaged before anyway . We extended sabotage methods compared to botf so you can conduct special attempts on objects you spied out before, like on ships and fleets you located in a specific system and then steal or blow them up specifically.

[Edited by Malle on Feb 16, 2011 at 18:30]

Feb 16, 2011 at 17:50

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #47]

Quote:
Malle wrote:
about tech progress, yes, at first 2-3 tech levels, you mostly got 20-30%

I don't know why you miss my point, again, when

Quote:
PAwleus wrote:
for me in BotE it's much more than 3-5% as researching 5 level fields just using homesystem and assigning to the one currently being emphasized just about 70% RPs (the rest was in different fields because I expected the possibility of breakthrough to kick in much earlier than 80% of progress) I've noticed 20-30% of difference in progress from turn to turn. I can only imagine how much more it could have been being better in acquiring members and not being forced to depend scientifically just on one system


Don't you see my point? It's not 2-3 tech levels but 5 tech levels, assigning only 70% and researching only by homesystem, in my case, so my point is that 20-30% (or even more) could be at any tech level depending only on how much scientifically oriented you are and how large empire you've built.
Feb 16, 2011 at 18:14

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Malle
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #48]

okay maybe I misunderstand the numbers and percentages here.

What do you mean with 5 tech levels? So you mean you research one area or all areas up to tech level 5 with just your homeworld and get 20-30% each turn? Well that's different to how I play it. My homeworld gets 10-12 research centers right from the start (I built it at turns 1-15, while buying some colony ships in between) and that was it for like the rest of the game. My homeworld is mostly equipped with fabricators (Mass replicators for Terrans) in order to be able to build homeworld-only structures quickly (like the +1 morale empire-wide ones).

but aside from that, I get the point. That's why there are upgrades and empires get larger so it can be achieved at tech levels higher than 3 depending on scientific orientation, sure. But even when I play a more scientific style I get problems to keep that high rate up higher than tech 7. RP costs explode at that point. Nevertheless some automatisms probably would not be a bad choice.

btw. it can be that it's 75%, not the 80% I mentioned needed as minimum advancement for sudden breakthrough. I'd need to test it out myself again or have a look at the code. I just remember someone said at our forums it works with 75% also. Well I obviously didn't implement it so I don't know exactly.

[Edited by Malle on Feb 16, 2011 at 19:25]

Feb 16, 2011 at 18:46

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PAwleus
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #49]

In the mentioned case I had all level 4 fields researched before researching level 5 fields and 20 level 4 Universities in my homesystem at the moment of notifying this 20-30% progress in the field that I had 70% RPs assigned to. For the record, I had 20 Mass Replicators, as well, and I bought items frequently.

[Edited by PAwleus on Feb 16, 2011 at 20:50]

Feb 16, 2011 at 20:50

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Malle
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Re: Birth of the Empires [post #50]

alright, so you play as terrans, that explains why it was so high (their universities are by far the best regarding RP production compared with other majors). I mostly play as Khaorons or Heyoun, they have the worst scientific buildings .

I'm no expert on terran strategics but I'd recommend in general not to use credits too often for buying items (that is more a strategy for the Heyoun player with his abundant sources of income and trade routes) but instead more for "quick-buying" minors. Terrans are the best diplomatic race and when I play them, I try to have a bit of money saved for when I meet big minors, i.e. minors with large systems or with advanced tech/ships. Mostly these minors are target of other majors too and they "fight" with you diplomatically over that minor. So to have a bit extra credits for bribing or gifts doesn't hurt, especially at the first 100 turns. Although I also have to say that this does not hold the first 50 turns where I put all my credits into transporter or colony ship buying (after turn 50 I mostly have one system with a large shipyard ready that can build those civilian ships in 1 or 2 turns so there is then no need anymore to buy them with credits).

After turn 100 you mostly have trade routes with another major and thus a lot of credits income per turn (ranges from 1000-3000 per turn, although 3000 per turn at turn 100 I only managed to have with Heyouns). So I do not save credits anymore but use them for whatever current purpose I think they are useful to invest in, mostly buying structures of course, also because you get credits back in a 1:1 ratio with respect to IP production, i.e. the part of the structure that your industry facilities can construct themselves is not need to be bought and so you get a partial refund. That's also why I usually have more fabricators at my homeworld, to profit from refunding that way.


btw. the game has a mirror download site here: Download section at star-trek-games.com fan site

[Edited by Malle on Feb 20, 2011 at 06:59]

Feb 16, 2011 at 21:44

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